People, go check out something I said in the parenting magazine Mother & Baby, March 2005 issue, page 58. It is my views regarding antenatal testing. I said “It was never an option for me.”
The article is pretty mild because it is for public reading. So, I hope to share some of my very stern stand on the issues of abortion. I am against abortion, no matter at what stage or for whatever reason. Unless the mother’s life is threaten. Otherwise, I don’t see any other reason to do it.
However, it is a fact that many women are still going for abortions with mere excuse that they are just ‘washing’ their womb. WTF! Washing indeed. Now, don’t get me wrong, I do not hate these women. I sympathise with them. I know someone close to me who is ignorant and never think twice about all her wanted pregnancies. She can’t afford financially and physically. She wasn’t counselled on birth control so what do you expect her to do? In this case, I can only assure her that whatever have been done, have been done. Sometimes,she will wonder if all her hardship is a punishment from the one up there. What can I tell her but – God doesn’t keep accounts so you have time to make good your mistakes. Just don’t do it anymore.
Then, there are many admirable women whom I know through my grief support who hold on to their pregnancies eventhough they knew their babies cannot survive much longer or are severely deformed. Some babies developed without a brain. These women carried through their pregnancies till it is self-terminated. They held their baby, gave the baby a proper funeral and move on to another chapter of their lives.
However, there are also some people I know that drove me cuckcoo with the way they see a pregnancy. Got too many girls? Another baby girl? Terminate it. They also never hesitate to terminate a pregnancy because of some unconfirmed fear that the baby will be handicapped. One of them wanted to terminate a pregnancy and went to a few established ob-gyns, got rejected and was searching for a backyard one to do the job. Through some intervention, I showed a middle person, my pregnancy book and explained that the baby in the womb is already having a heart and limbs.
One of my distant cousin committed suicide in her teenage years due to an unwanted pregnancy. I feel that this is such a tragedy! My uncle got very ill after her death and died not long after. Sometimes, I try to put myself in the shoes of a parent with a son or daugther who has gotten pregnant accidentally. Maybe I am very idealistic but I know that I would want a grandchild, even if the baby is illegitimate. Babies are all so adorable so it doesn’t matter where they come from. And if they are born without a proper home, there will be lots of people willing to adopt the babies.
It will be selfish if say, a young girl wanted to do away with her pregnancy so that her studies, future, image are not affected. If she has gotten herself into it, I think it is only right that she solved the problem, hopefully with helpful and supportive people. The parents of course, should not put their own selfishness like image, reputation above the life of a baby.
Of course, I hope and pray that my kids will be able to grow up with a proper religious foundation of no pre-marital sex and definitely, no abortion. It is a big challenge to me as a mother but I shall try to put my faith into this.
Back to the article, the reason I was against any form of pre-natal testing is because I had told my ob-gynae that I do not care if my baby has any disabilities or whatever. It is mine, a gift from God, and therefore, I will accept it. Sadly, many women still opt for pre-natal testing for Down Syndrome for e.g. If they found out that the baby has a risk of getting Down Syndrome, they think they have the upper hand to decide the future of the baby – by killing it.
My strong contention is not entirely my own foolishness. I had mingled with many mothers of special children and I do not see what is so different about having special children except that it involves more work and bigger challenges. They deserve to live if they can survive in this world. I had also attended a doctors’ seminar (as a guest la) where our country top ob-gynae talked to the nurses on the risk of pre-natal testing. There were 200 of us women in the room and he said that if everyone of us were to take the test, two babies will have to be terminated. And out of these two, maybe they may not be entirely ‘rejected’ but still can live a normal life. Isn’t that so cruel?
He earned my highest respect when he quoted our Rukun Negara, Kepercayaan Kepada Tuhan. It is all God’s will. We have to accept and carry it through. Say NO to abortion.
(Flame retardant – Yeah, yeah, I know….I am self-uprighteous, I am cocky, I am vain, I am too idealistic, I am a bitch. Whatever la.. Think twice before you screw?)
Another interesting note : We actually have couples who sued their doctors because the doctors did not detect that the baby is ‘something wrong’ when pregnant and poor doctors have to tangggung (pay) for the maintenance of the child. Oh boy, I do not know how to feel for these couples. My sympathy, support or tell them to go kill themselves to solve their own miseries? In my personal opionions, this is just so, so wrong.
5xmom quotes : It is easier to bring a baby into this world than to carry the guilt of abortion.
To all those women whom have done it, I extend my understanding and hope that they are able to come to terms with their actions.
Ooo…This I understand very well. 🙂 You are talking about abortion, maybe you could talk about human cloning – cloning babies next time or those test tube babies. 😛 Later come back comment again, gonna read it another time. 😀
“(Flame retardant – Yeah, yeah, I know….I am self-uprighteous, I am cocky, I am vain, I am too idealistic, I am a bitch. Whatever la.. Think twice before you screw?)”
Nope. You are not being idealistic or a bitch. I too do not believe in pre-natal testing although I have been asked to do so since I started my family late. 1st kid at 36, 2nd at 38. Its like playing mini God. Like picking fruits or something. “Nope, bad fruit, reject. Next, please!”
msau recently blogged about an acquaintance who did not take any precautions although she does not want anymore kids but worries that she may be pregnant and intents to abort if she does become pregnant. Thats sooooo irresponsible. I cannot understand such logic.
But on the other hand if a baby is known to be so severely deformed as to not to be able to have a life, then maybe, just maybe its not right to bring it to this world to suffer? I am not sure. Its a tough decision in those cases.
I told liulian this case before and i would like to share with you guys again, here goes :
A “frend” of mine to whom i known for several years in IRC, lets call him korn ok ? (thats not his real name dork!) anywway hes only 19 yrs old when he came to me for a loan (I known him since hes 15). I only met him once or twice but i have been seing his nick on a daily basis in my chatroom for donkeys years liow. Anyway, one day he came to me asking for a loan of a few thousand bucks. He told me his gf is pregnantED and they need money to “solve” this problem of them.
Lets say if this happens to you, would you give him the loan or else ?
I’tell you the finale later if any of you are interested.
🙂
How about pregnancy from incest?
Personally, abortion is not an option for me, so I’m very careful about stuff like this, but I don’t begrudge anyone who chooses to do so, and am for legislature allowing abortion. So far I’ve never personally known people who look at abortion as birth control, so maybe my views are biased by the fact that I lost a friend because she got cheated by a guy and didn’t know what to do. She killed herself in the end.
Obviously abortion wasn’t the only way out, she would still be alive today if she had managed to get some support from someone, anyone. I think people have their own reasons for doing what they do, and they are old enough to make their own decisions. They also have to live with the consequences of their decisions.
Lilian,
Sorry to say this, but I might be the only one here who agree with you 50%. Maybe its the scietific sensitizing (however you spell it) or the fact that i grew up with parents who are too realist. I feel that pre-natal test is important. one is to determine if the baby is going to be deformed. That should give parents warning and give them time to decide what to do. also if the baby is deformed, at least the parents can prepare for the trauma. So testing just tells you how the baby is going to come out, it does not say that we have to abort, that decision is up to the mother. So i dont quite agree that pre-natal test is “bad”.
But i also think that genetic deformities are important to maintain the genetic pool in order to keep the human species continously evolving. I believe in evolution, but I give the begining of life a benifit of doubt. How life started, either god or some strange chemicle reaction, i still believe in both. but evolution is everywhere. Darwin is right.
another issue to address is pre-marraige health test. like the pre-natal test, we could find out that our fiance has some disease like hep B carrier. so then what? call off the wedding?
gee.. today we had an abortion video in class. gruesome. they crack the baby’s head and suck it out.. very gross and very bad.
You’re right Auntie Lilian. Abortion is not an option unless the pregnancy harms the mother and the child. And for those who indulge in pre-marital sex or sex when married for that matter…take the necessary precautions. There’s Durex every damn where nowadays. Go use it. Save that few ringgit and pay with your guilt later.
I beg to defer.
1st the argument against prenatal testing. Hm.. Do you know that some parents do it to ‘plan ahead’ how they’re going to cope with lives (both theirs and the baby’s) lest the baby is handicapped or ill?. They never meant to abort the baby in any circumstances. Completely rejecting prenatal testing is the same as saying that “all patient should not go to see a doctor, or have checkups” because if they were to get cancer or any form of illnesses, it should be God’s will and those doctors should not play “Mini God” by trying to treat a patient.
2nd, I think the stand “against abortion, no matter at what stage or for whatever reason. Unless the mother’s life is threaten.” is a bit too harsh and contradictory. I think this is a heavy practice of double standard. A baby and its mother are equal since “all lives should be treated the same”. How is it that a mother should be superior to her baby and deserves more to live on Earth that once the mother’s life is threaten then we can ‘kill’ the baby? Isn’t it by God’s will that the baby has arrived in the mother’s womb? How’s killing the baby to save the mother’s life justified?
Moreover all labours carry certain degree of “threat” – that is the mother risks losing her life through loss of blood in the process of childbirth etc. So if we say that a mother’s life is under some form of threat throughout pregnancy, can we abort the baby at any level? If not, how “threatened” is threatening enough to justify the killing of a baby?
3rd, what about babies who are products of incest and rape – the embroyes formed from the fusions of the sick father’s/rapist’s sperm and the daughter’s ovum. How can a mother bear to live with a baby she conceived in hate? How can she and her family bear the sight of the baby, whose appearance half-resembling the animal who raped her mercilessly once upon a time? And morally, can we bare to see the child coming to Earth, haunting and traumatizing its bearer, and not knowing whether to call the woman who once gave birth to him his “mother” or “sister” or “half-mother-half-sister”?
ah jayelle..i remember taking a human sexuality class in the US during my uni years. They showed a video of an abortion, so gruesome onelah. What they do is they put this thing inside ah (u know wherelah)and then they kind of blender up the fetus. After that they suck the blended fetus out. Arghhss!! Aiyoooo, after that ah, all the mat salleh girls in my class all swear not to have unprotected sex anymore, takut woooo!!!
Prevention is better than cure !!
Hi Lilian,
Wat an interesting topic you have today. I remembered some time back, you have mentioned that you will be featured on this month’s leading mother book. I went looking for it at the bookstore. Flipped right past thru it & complained to myself that maybe it’s not available in that bookstore. Then I came back to your blog just to find out which mag it is in. Anyways, it’s not right (morally & spiritually) in terms of TOP(termination of pregnancy). 5 yrs ago, I witnessed a TOP (unwanted pregnancy) and was there to take care of the “mother” during recovery. During that few days I was with her, she went thru lotsa pain (physically & mentally). At nite, she said she heard baby’s cries and dreamt of the baby. It’s very draining for everyone. 5 yrs later, one young Christian couple was told recently that the baby in the mother could be a Down’s(test result frm blood test & baby is in early 2nd trimester). They went for amnio & wait patiently for the results. They have no idea what the result is yet. The young couple have decided to go on with the pregnancy. Down’s or not. I hang on the these words of encouragement when I stumble upon troubles… “If God brings you to it, God will bring you through it” and “He will not test you beyond what you can bear”. He’s a loving God, just that he’s misunderstood a lot of times. Abortion is NOT the solution.
Looking at MunKit’s view, reading your article, both have their own strong point of view and stand. However, to me, abortion is an option, not the last option. If the baby is infected with diseases like MunKit said, its would be better to end its life rather than letting him out into this world and let him/her suffer and causing a seriously deep wound in our heart. If there’s no stronger reason to do abortion, why should we abort the baby just because its an “accident” or its an unwanted child? 🙂 However, doctor should be in a neutral stance and give the best advice and suggestion, guiding people to the best option. 🙂
Wah, I baru jalan-jalan kambek, cannot digest so many things. But hor, let’s not try to put ourselves in others shoes first.
Incest? It shouldn’t happen in the first place and if it did, then, I suppose I really have no say on that, fishtail.
Neeshen – I kepala pusing how Darwin’s theory is related.
Blended fetus – eeewwww, glad Jayelle and Along enlightened us about this. Gross and cruel, isn’t it?
Prepare mentally – Yes, I never say cannot test la, dey. Test can test la. But to me, what for test? How to prepare mentally? Every pregnancy oso I prepare mentally for all risks yet….
But do you know that in the Gov. Hospitals, many women went through the test and guess what the ob-gyn told us? They never ask if the baby is ok, they ask ‘cha boh or ta poh’ first. (girl or boy) Which means that the Chinese especially, are more concerned about the sex of the baby. Of course, all the parents are being counselled before they are given an abortion.
As for babies being born to suffer, we are not the one to decide if it is better for them to be dead. If the baby can survive, baby will survive till the time to die. It can’t be helped, we can’t hasten the process.
BTW, I have had two miscarriages and I know that even though it is not my fault, I feel guilty enough. What more a woman who opted to end the pregnancy.
As for the pressures from society, family and all that, it is a sad fact. Many girls are driven to suicide and abortion because of this. That’s why we, as a friend, sibling or whatever, has to learn to be compassionate and watch out for signs.
Yeah, this is mini-god talking.
Wingz asked :
I’tell you the finale later if any of you are interested. Posted by: Wingz at March 15, 2005 03:19 PM
Hey, how come nobody is interested to know? If Wingz give the loan, he is helping to kill a baby. If Wingz did not give the loan, he is helping to kill the mom. So, what would you do if you are Wingz? Come on, think? Say something, guys? This is a kisah benar.
Oh ya, OJ – the mom’s life and the fetus life are equally important but if you have to decide for your wife, let’s say, you would decide for your wife’s life. Definitely. No doubt about that. Because the cause is the baby, the effect is the death of your wife and probably your baby. So, kill a monkey to save the errrr…forgot what is the Chinese proverb liao.
Michelle – Thank you for your wise stand. Our Muslims sisters and Christians sisters share these views. I can’t say for sure if the other religious faiths share the same views. And that’s is the whole point I am trying to drive through. If we rely and fall back on faith, we mustn’t do it. No further buts…
Jason – If my grief support moms hear what you said, they will thrashed you. Because in our (mothers) eyes, there is no baby ugly, deformed, sick or whatever. We love them just the same, we will care for them with the same amount of love. A baby not born normal is the same to us as a perfect baby. It is our society that sucks, that made special children different. Remember that – there is no baby that is ‘not good enough’.
Downs is fairly mild compared to many other chromosome abnormalities, like Trisomy 13, 18 and etc. I have free books for distribution (from overseas) on dealing with such pregnancies and also have the contacts in case there are mothers who doubt.
Jason apologizes for being naive. 🙂 Well, maybe I still don’t understand what is parental love and the full power/potential it could bring in one person. 🙂
Abortion is just plain wrong.
One, for what ever reason, what is the right of us to kill an innocent child?
Two, ask all those couple who never had a chance to have a child?
Three, for the incest, as in reason 1, is the unborn child is the guilty party? why punish him/her?
Four, for those unplanned pregnancy, man, which head those people are using? Bleargh!
We have many other mechanism to solve this problem, adoption is one of them.
Let us not take a short term solution, an easy way out and let the real root cause go unresolved.
Is this being idealistic? I don’t think so. It is just a logical and humane thing to do.
Lets talk numbers, which is fairer? Punishing someone who is 16,17,18,20….(pick your number) or someone is 0-38 weeks old?
Do the maths.
Oh, if you asking me about the post 38 weeks? I am sure there are thousands of couple who are GENUINELY glad to have a child!
Yeah, Sham, gimme a five. That’s my kind of bro!
Jason – hope you learn something huh? Cannot just comment for the sake of it ‘cos you do not know, and may never know what it is like to have to carry a baby that is for e.g. a thalassemia major. (one mom was advised by the doctor to terminate but eventually, she hold on until the baby died in her womb) I had been in touched with many of these moms and therefore, I dare to talk. Otherwise, we may break many hearts with our words, unknowingly.
Yes, I learnt something. 🙂 Somehow, I still don’t agree with abortion unless I have no other choice. Abortion would be the last option for me and my wife. The baby is a product of love by 2 person, nutured with love and care even before it is born. Of course, I would like to bring him/her to this world, but sometimes, reality forces us to do cruel decision. Well, hopefully our batch of generation knows how to practice safe sex and avoid such situations. Sorry to all the wonderful mums out there.
Abstinence is the best contraception.
David, wish there are more young men like you. Right now, I garu kepala liao ‘cos I don’t know how to talk about the birds and the bees. *sigh* Parenting is such a tough job.
Sham:
so even if childbirth may threaten the mother, we don’t abort it right? and even if the mother risks dying (i.e rhesus rejection), we don’t abort the baby and we should allow both of them to die? because baby is not guilty, right?
bcoz your argument 3: “is the unborn child is the guilty party? why punish him/her?”
then you contradicts auntie lilian’s argument. and yet she gives you 5 🙂 is this blind support or what?
I’m not saying that the act of abortion should be embraced. But under certain circumstances, its use can be condoned, and thus you cannot say that it’s “plain wrong”.
OJ oi OJ – Sham is a dad of two kids and I am a mom. So, you see, our point of views are rather biased ‘cos we had experienced the whole process of conception till birth. We had seen the miracle of the birth of our kids. So, we can get very passionate in our stand against abortion. Therefore, we do not really care to dissect every points ‘cos we have to stand on either side and not on the fence. So, as far as Sham and I are concerned, NO to abortion.
Lillian,
Sometimes, it is difficult to take a firm stand on abortion issues.
For example in India, the rich have the option of performing an ultrasound to determine the gender of the baby. When they discover it’s going to be a girl, an abortion is usually the way taken. The poor on the other hand with no money for ultrasounds, wait till the child is born. When it’s a girl child, they kill the child with poison or by starvation. The poor do it because of dowry issues, the rich do it because of “family status”. In once case, a foetus is aborted, the other a child is killed. Morally, I find both utterly despicable, but more so, I cannot fully comprehend why the rich do it.
I don’t mean to make this religious or racial. But then, these practice goes on. Even in our Malaysian societies, it still happens. The Chinese still do that, take an aminiotic test and if it is a girl, they do it. Of course, I can’t risk my head to quote place where they can get it done. This is also another interesting topic that I am going to blog one day. The preference for baby boys.
That’s why as Christians, we often said we are bearing the sins of others. For e.g. if we have to suffer something, we accept it as carrying the burdens for other people. And we accepted that we are chosen to bear some sufferings because God has made us stronger, steel-ier to bear them. Pretty confusing but I can digest this reasoning but not karma, though.
Hmm….mayb i m being naive or ignorant…but, to me, i still think tht if u r not ready to take the responsibility to b a parent, then dunn have sex….even if having, then do it safely!!But, if someone ACCIDENTLY is pragnant, then, for heaven’s sake…bear d child and bring him up…coz…it’s another life..and it’s not up to us to decide if he should live, rite??Dunn come up with any excuses like…not ready for it yet or kenot bear the responsibility….we haf to learn, no??
Just hope more people could read this….
Hi eKLim and Jun – Welcome, welcome and thank you for the feedback. It is very encouraging for me, to write more thought provoking things in future.
What happens when a fetus is aborted or miscarried? Didn’t that being wanted to have life on Earth? Who has the right to determine for a featus if it lives or dies?
We all have choice and can and do change our minds. Each soul that decides to come into the body is a full being already.
Should that soul decide it does not want to be born, to experience life after all, it may choose a variety of ways of stopping the process, which include abortion or miscarriage
mwt – I dun get this meaning…
it may choose a variety of ways of stopping the process, which include abortion or miscarriage
Abortion – not within the control of the fetus leh. The fetus is forcefully removed from the womb. So how lah the fetus can choose?
Miscarriage – yalah, 25% of pregnancies ended up in miscarriage. Nature’s way of eliminating the bad eggs.
For the minority group like me ( difficult-to-get-chewren-one), abortion is unthinkable unless it’s a matter of life or death to the mother. A close friend of mine went into coma almost 7 yrs ago and she was two months pregnant, then. The pregnancy was terminated, she is still in partial coma – donno the med. term and hubby remarried but still taking care of her ….). The Gift of Life is not ours to end …..
Pompit – Thank you for saying it loud for all to know. Sometimes, we take things for granted and forgot others. If we get too aggresive about No to abortion, it is because many are abusing the easy way out, right? There are many foolish women who did it again and again and again….. *sigh*
im am totally aginst abortion dnt think its right y is is it reight to kill a baby will its inside you i think it the same of killing a baby when it is born so either way it is still muder in my eyes.the only way a belive in abortion is if there the child is going to have no qulity of life and if the mother is going to be in dager her self but it alll depends on the surcumstances.